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--- 329:question:329--week_5_questions_comments-2018 [2018/10/04 12:43] – [Errors in fact] cstough
+++ 329:question:329--week_5_questions_comments-2018 [2018/10/04 13:01] (current) – [The "So, what?" question] kmoore6
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 ====== Things the Movie got right ======
-Does present a few powerful, unforgettable scenes of the horrors of the Middle Passage. --Lindsey Sowers
+Does present a few powerful, unforgettable scenes of **the horrors of the Middle Passage**. --Lindsey Sowers
 West Africans themselves sold other tribes to Portuguese and Spanish slave traders. Former president John Quincy Adams came out of retirement to win the freedom of the slaves and have them returned to Sierra Leone. - Andrew Mullins
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 ~Will Everett
-There was a language barrier between the Mende and the Americans, creating problems as the Mende weren't able to defend themselves. This is accurate and the movie did a good job immersing the audience in the language barrier. --Maryanna Stribling
+**There was a language barrier between the Mende and the Americans, creating problems as the Mende weren't able to defend themselves. This is accurate and the movie did a good job immersing the audience in the language barrier. --Maryanna Stribling**
 The threats and concerns of Senator John C. Calhoun were accurate to what he had been arguing during the 1830s. In 1828, Calhoun anonymously published //South Carolina Exposition and Protest// to argue for nullification, meaning a state had the “right to reject federal laws” if they saw them as harmful. Calhoun’s ideas supported that the South had the right to secede if its freedoms were encroached upon. In the movie, having a discussion on such a touchy subject during a state dinner was probably used for dramatic effect. The tension between Calhoun and Van Buren stresses how important it was for Van Buren to keep the South happy at this time and for Calhoun to ensure that the existence of slavery was defended, not undermined.
 "The Tariff of Abominations: The Effects." History, Art, and Archives, United States House of Representatives. http://history.house.gov/Historical-Highlights/1800-1850/The-Tariff-of-Abominations/. -Maddie Shiflett
-In the beginning of the movie while in the courtroom they used the real name of man who was buying the Mende slaves illegally, Jose Ruiz. Also, in the courtroom everyone was fighting over the rights of who gets the ship and everything on it, including the Mende people; which also is accurate.  --Caroline Collier
+In the beginning of the movie while in the courtroom they used the real name of man who was buying the Mende slaves illegally, Jose Ruiz. **Also, in the courtroom everyone was fighting over the rights of who gets the ship and everything on it, including the Mende people; which also is accurate.**  --Caroline Collier
 The movie accurately portrayed the language barrier between the Mende people and the Americans and the difficulties that arise from it. – Courtlyn Plunkett
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 Reading about the middle passage and learning about the horrific and terrifying elements involved is tough. Seeing a film depiction is heart-wrenching. Viewers are forced to see the horrors of the middle passage and the treatment of the African captives as nothing more than animals. Spielberg taps into every emotion with the Middle Passage sequence and inhibits the viewer from only being sad or angry at slavery; the viewer is also sickened and disturbed. It’s frightening and the idea that Spielberg does not shy away from highlighting the gruesome details allows for the slave history of the middle passage to receive the attention that it needs. While there are some problems—like the chiseled bods of the captives for instance—the movie and the horrifying imagery reminds all of what happened and that what happened was morally and inherently wrong. -Lake Wiley
-The movie was able to get a fair amount right from the general story that was related to us in class about the Amistad case. There were only a few women and children on the boat when it was discovered by the USS Washington off the coast of Long Island. Martin Van Buren was the president at the time and was up for re-election, this was pushed very hard and I am not sure how accurate the intensity of the campaign was portrayed. The church that Martin Freeman and Stellen Skarsgard walked through was very period accurate. The first judge did try to be impartial when deciding the case, which was also true. Matthew McConaughey's character was accurate in how he believed that the case was going to be about property law. The middle passage was very well described and was show without shying away from the horrors that happened on board the Tecora, I agree with Lake that Spielberg really showed the passage accurately and gave it the attention that it deserved. The finding of the Mende translator was accurate as the cast went to the docks chanting numbers. Spielberg also showed the growing interest in the case and the transition and addition of John Quincy Addams in helping with the Supreme Court.--Jack Hagn
+**The movie was able to get a fair amount right from the general story that was related to us in class about the Amistad case. There were only a few women and children on the boat when it was discovered by the USS Washington off the coast of Long Island. Martin Van Buren was the president at the time and was up for re-election, this was pushed very hard and I am not sure how accurate the intensity of the campaign was portrayed. The church that Martin Freeman and Stellen Skarsgard walked through was very period accurate. The first judge did try to be impartial when deciding the case, which was also true. Matthew McConaughey's character was accurate in how he believed that the case was going to be about property law. The middle passage was very well described and was show without shying away from the horrors that happened on board the Tecora, I agree with Lake that Spielberg really showed the passage accurately and gave it the attention that it deserved. The finding of the Mende translator was accurate as the cast went to the docks chanting numbers. Spielberg also showed the growing interest in the case and the transition and addition of John Quincy Addams in helping with the Supreme Court.--Jack Hagn**
-I think the filmmakers did a good job portraying the kidnapping and voyage of Africans. It was difficult and horrific to watch how they were treated. The moment where the lady willingly goes overboard with the newborn was a truly emotionally charged scene. I can’t imagine what it must have been like to act out and film those parts. The Tecora was a slave ship that actually did exist. The term ‘goods’ in regards to slaves is accurate, they weren’t seen as individuals but merchandise like we discussed last class. They did get some of the character’s names right who represented the Mende in court. They also got the frustrations of a language and culture barrier correct, even if it was briefly.
+**I think the filmmakers did a good job portraying the kidnapping and voyage of Africans.** It was difficult and horrific to watch how they were treated. The moment where the lady willingly goes overboard with the newborn was a truly emotionally charged scene. I can’t imagine what it must have been like to act out and film those parts. The Tecora was a slave ship that actually did exist. The term ‘goods’ in regards to slaves is accurate, they weren’t seen as individuals but merchandise like we discussed last class. They did get some of the character’s names right who represented the Mende in court. They also got the frustrations of a language and culture barrier correct, even if it was briefly.
 - Johana Colchado
-The hectic and packed court room scene at the beginning of the film did a good job of representing all the different sides to this case. There were the Spanish slave owners, the crew of the USS Washington, the Secretary of State on behalf of Spain, and of course the Mende themselves.--Sam Hartz
+**The hectic and packed court room scene at the beginning of the film did a good job of representing all the different sides to this case.** There were the Spanish slave owners, the crew of the USS Washington, the Secretary of State on behalf of Spain, and of course the Mende themselves.--Sam Hartz
 ====== Questions about interpretation ======
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 ====== Comparing the reading to the movie ======
+**
-The readings were good first person accounts from key abolitionist actors of the day, the movie depicts the Amistad case as being about a "turning point to end slavery"and the supreme court decision around it.  According to Columbia University historian Eric Foner, the movie Amistad is misleading in that it depicts the supreme court's decision was "convinced by John Quincy Adams plea to repudiate slavery in favor of the natural rights of man" when in reality the case was about the illegality of the Atlantic slave trade which was outlawed internationally by 1840.
+The readings were good first person accounts from key abolitionist actors of the day, the movie depicts the Amistad case as being about a "turning point to end slavery"and the supreme court decision around it.  According to Columbia University historian Eric Foner, the movie Amistad is misleading in that it depicts the supreme court's decision was "convinced by John Quincy Adams plea to repudiate slavery in favor of the natural rights of man" when in reality the case was about the illegality of the Atlantic slave trade which was outlawed internationally by 1840. **
 Cite: Foner, Eric. //The Amistad Case in Fact and Film// http://historymatters.gmu.edu/d/74  - Andrew Mullins
-In comparing the story of Equiano to the journey Joseph Cinque endures, there are definitely significant portions of Equiano's story that Spielberg likely pulled inspiration from with this film. That isn't to say that Cinque and Equiano couldn't have had similar paths in regards to the slave trade (their journeys getting to the Americas aren't exactly standout cases), but, given the major role Equiano plays as a voice for African Americans and abolitionists, there is definitely a case to be made here. The three major points of Equiano's journey (at least in my argument) are his capture by slave traders, his horrible journey on the ship, and his conversion to Christianity. All three of these aspects can be seen through Joseph Cinque in this film; even Christianity, while it is definitely downplayed in this film, was a major part of defining Cinque's character and connecting him to his real-life counterpart (whom multiple accounts say was very serious when it came to his conversion to the Christina faith). --Robert Dallas
+In comparing the story of Equiano to the journey Joseph Cinque endures, there are definitely significant portions of Equiano's story that Spielberg likely pulled inspiration from with this film. That isn't to say that Cinque and Equiano couldn't have had similar paths in regards to the slave trade (their journeys getting to the Americas aren't exactly standout cases), but, given the major role Equiano plays as a voice for African Americans and abolitionists, there is definitely a case to be made here. The three major points of Equiano's journey (at least in my argument) are his capture by slave traders, his horrible journey on the ship, and his conversion to Christianity. All three of these aspects can be seen through Joseph Cinque in this film; **even Christianity, while it is definitely downplayed in this film, was a major part of defining Cinque's character and connecting him to his real-life counterpart (whom multiple accounts say was very serious when it came to his conversion to the Christina faith).** --Robert Dallas
-Tappan's account of meeting with Cinque and the other Africans was very similar to Baldwin's role in the movie, so it was interesting that Tappan's character was removed from these scenes. I wonder if they utilized these accounts to help write the scenes in the jail. The conversations with Cinque, the use of an interpreter who was also captured in Africa, and the account of the kidnapping itself are all consistent with Tappan's letter. I also found it interesting that they mentioned the man with the sharpened teeth, who died in the movie. However, it seems there was much more Christianity involved in the lives of the Africans than just that one guy with the Bible. Maybe this is just because Tappan was one of the evangelicals trying to save slaves. --Erin Shaw
+**Tappan's account of meeting with Cinque and the other Africans was very similar to Baldwin's role in the movie, so it was interesting that Tappan's character was removed from these scenes.** I wonder if they utilized these accounts to help write the scenes in the jail. The conversations with Cinque, the use of an interpreter who was also captured in Africa, and the account of the kidnapping itself are all consistent with Tappan's letter. I also found it interesting that they mentioned the man with the sharpened teeth, who died in the movie. However, it seems there was much more Christianity involved in the lives of the Africans than just that one guy with the Bible. Maybe this is just because Tappan was one of the evangelicals trying to save slaves. --Erin Shaw
 Tappans account  reveals again the diversity of the enslaved people captured in Africa. He mentions the “Mohamedans” another name for Muslims. I wonder why the diversity in religion was only represented in one portion of the film and not carried on throughout? -William Roszell
-I think the film did a good job of addressing the religious rhetoric  which supported the abolitionist movements. The film used repeated Christian imagery to parallel Cinque's 'sacrifice' and appeal to the sympathy of religious folks in regards to slavery's morality. Many of the white abolitionists in the film had religious motives. Tappan's "A Black Abolitionist Speaks Out" reveals the hypocrisy of American slavery by Christians. David Walker appeals, "have we any master but Jesus Christ alone?" The film vilified those who profited in the slave trade, therefore endorsing the contempt for hypocritical christians. --Jessica Lynch
+I think the film did a good job of addressing the religious rhetoric  which supported the abolitionist movements. **The film used repeated Christian imagery to parallel Cinque's 'sacrifice' and appeal to the sympathy of religious folks in regards to slavery's morality.** Many of the white abolitionists in the film had religious motives. Tappan's "A Black Abolitionist Speaks Out" reveals the hypocrisy of American slavery by Christians. David Walker appeals, "have we any master but Jesus Christ alone?" The film vilified those who profited in the slave trade, therefore endorsing the contempt for hypocritical christians. --Jessica Lynch
 ====== The "So, what?" question ======
 This movie shows the horrors of slavery in a very immersive way. The audience feels as though they are on the slave ship witnessing the absolute atrocities against these people, with no way of stopping it. We can not go back in time to see slavery in action or walk on to a slave ship and see the terrible conditions fellow humans had to endure, but with this movie we can get a sense of what it might have been like. By teaching the modern audience about their stories and the trials they were put through, it gives it much needed recognition. -- Grace Corkran
-In terms of its portrayal of the tensions present in the United States during this time, I think that this movie shows that talk of the possibility of a civil War occurred much earlier than what is generally understood today. Of course, the Civil War was the result of years and years of building tensions and pressures. Yet, in modern discussions, the Amistad case or events of the 1830's-early 1840's are mentioned with less frequency despite their contribution to the building tension. By including John Calhoun and his talk of a possible civil war because of the Amistad situation, it reinforces that the South was already becoming unhappy with actions in the North at this time. -Maddie Shiflett
+**In terms of its portrayal of the tensions present in the United States during this time, I think that this movie shows that talk of the possibility of a civil War occurred much earlier than what is generally understood today.** Of course, the Civil War was the result of years and years of building tensions and pressures. Yet, in modern discussions, the Amistad case or events of the 1830's-early 1840's are mentioned with less frequency despite their contribution to the building tension. By including John Calhoun and his talk of a possible civil war because of the Amistad situation, it reinforces that the South was already becoming unhappy with actions in the North at this time. -Maddie Shiflett
 This movie is all the more powerful for being a realistic depiction of true events. Unlike in The Patriot, there is very little exaggeration or dramatization. The only thing I noticed was that the Amistad had a larger crew that was killed when the Mende took over the ship, as opposed to just the captain and cook. It does a good job of telling this story and its impact on the greater movements and unrest in America and foreshadowing the events that were to come. –Jessie Fitzgerald
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 How did this film attempt to portray the complexities of the transatlantic slave trade? The film repeatedly showed extended scenes of utter violence and horror that was hard to watch, leaving the viewer to think, "when will this end?" That's when the harsh reality hits you, the enslaved Africans ripped from their homes were thinking the same thing. Our discomfort while watching these scenes is only a microcosm of the trauma enslaved African people had to reconcile for the entirety of their lives. Rather than glorify the slave trade, this film shoves the death of innocent peoples right in your face, and refuses to let you disregard this unforgivable time in our past any longer.--Jessica Lynch
-Ultimately, I agree that this is the most historically accurate movie we have seen in the class. It takes some liberties, but all of those liberties make the story better for audiences without sacrificing the authenticity of the movie. I feel this is true for a variety of reasons; for one, Stephen Spielberg is far more talented than the likes of Roland Emmerich (and I believe more talented than Michael Mann as well). However, that alone isn’t enough for historical accuracy: it also manages to be better because of the nature of the subject matter. The other movies were ultimately unwilling to commit to the reality of history because they are dealing with myths that a majority of Americans still believe in. Many Americans are unwilling to accept that colonization was a violent endeavor that even the “good guys” were complicit in, so Pocahontas tiptoed around that topic. Americans were unwilling to accept that Americans might be committing their own war crimes, unwilling to accept that a man considered an American Hero could also own slaves, so the Patriot provided us with a singularly black and white view of the Revolution. The slave trade, on the other hand, was so unambiguously brutal and unethical that nobody truly disagrees with that anymore (and the people who do, well, screw them), so this movie was more willing to engage with history in an intellectually satisfying way. (Justin Curtis)
+Ultimately, I agree that this is the most historically accurate movie we have seen in the class. It takes some liberties, but all of those liberties make the story better for audiences without sacrificing the authenticity of the movie. I feel this is true for a variety of reasons; for one, Stephen Spielberg is far more talented than the likes of Roland Emmerich (and I believe more talented than Michael Mann as well). However, that alone isn’t enough for historical accuracy: it also manages to be better because of the nature of the subject matter. **The other movies were ultimately unwilling to commit to the reality of history because they are dealing with myths that a majority of Americans still believe in. Many Americans are unwilling to accept that colonization was a violent endeavor that even the “good guys” were complicit in, so Pocahontas tiptoed around that topic.** Americans were unwilling to accept that Americans might be committing their own war crimes, unwilling to accept that a man considered an American Hero could also own slaves, so the Patriot provided us with a singularly black and white view of the Revolution. The slave trade, on the other hand, was so unambiguously brutal and unethical that nobody truly disagrees with that anymore (and the people who do, well, screw them), so this movie was more willing to engage with history in an intellectually satisfying way. (Justin Curtis)
 While the movie does follow the general outline of the events, it takes enough liberties to put some ease on the US audience. While there are some prominent US citizens in the film who are overtly racist (Van Buren, Calhoun, and Tappan to an extent), most are abolitionist. Through this, it pushes the idea that the North was completely against slavery and was so from much earlier than when the movements caught on. Portraying events like this muddies the past and makes it much easier for people to ignore the atrocities the US committed, something that shouldn’t be forgotten or in any way lessened. The only part of this that I thought it did well was displaying how willing politicians are to throw away any sense of morals in order to get reelected.  –Sky Horne
-I think that with this movie the filmmakers wanted to accurately depict both the story of the Amistad and the complex political and legal dynamic around slavery in the 1830’s. In the instances where scenes were clearly dramatized for the audience, such as the early attempts at communication between Joseph Cinque and Roger Baldwin, it was done in a way that didn’t really take much away from that depiction. --Sam Hartz
+I think that with this movie the filmmakers wanted to accurately depict both the story of the Amistad and the complex political and legal dynamic around slavery in the 1830’s. **In the instances where scenes were clearly dramatized for the audience, such as the early attempts at communication between Joseph Cinque and Roger Baldwin, it was done in a way that didn’t really take much away from that depiction.****Bold Text** --Sam Hartz