329:question:329--week_14_questions_comments
Differences
This shows you the differences between two versions of the page.
| Both sides previous revisionPrevious revisionNext revision | Previous revision | ||
| 329:question:329--week_14_questions_comments [2016/12/01 08:56] – [4 Movie as a Primary Source about the time in which it was made] ccooney | 329:question:329--week_14_questions_comments [2016/12/01 18:39] (current) – [5 Comparing the reading to the movie] lmccuist | ||
|---|---|---|---|
| Line 4: | Line 4: | ||
| Some of the events that happened are disputed by some of the Marines that were in Kovac’s unit. Rudy Molina Jr. says he was the one that rescued Kovac, and that the Marines did not all turn tail and run. Molina also states that there were no black males in the reginement, and states that Kovac’s account, “I came to the conclusion that the book and the movie were written to sell.” Jardine, Jeff. "' | Some of the events that happened are disputed by some of the Marines that were in Kovac’s unit. Rudy Molina Jr. says he was the one that rescued Kovac, and that the Marines did not all turn tail and run. Molina also states that there were no black males in the reginement, and states that Kovac’s account, “I came to the conclusion that the book and the movie were written to sell.” Jardine, Jeff. "' | ||
| - | The way in which the VA Hospital was depicted struck me as overdramatized. Granted, I did not experience being a patient there but I felt as though all of the workers were depicted as lazy and incompetent. Was this another slight towards African Americans’ help in the war effort? It bothered me that they cast the entire hospital staff apart from the one doctor as African American but also portrayed them as entirely unsympathetic and utterly incapable when in reality, the Vietnam War involved all races. While Stone may have been attempting to depict the harsh conditions soldiers faced during recovery only to an exaggerated extent. From what we discussed in class, the VA was notorious for being underfunded and unable to meet high expectations but the way it was portrayed in the film seems problematic and offensive. | + | **The way in which the VA Hospital was depicted struck me as overdramatized.** Granted, I did not experience being a patient there but I felt as though all of the workers were depicted as lazy and incompetent. Was this another slight towards African Americans’ help in the war effort? It bothered me that **they cast the entire hospital staff apart from the one doctor as African American but also portrayed them as entirely unsympathetic and utterly incapable** when in reality, the Vietnam War involved all races. While Stone may have been attempting to depict the harsh conditions soldiers faced during recovery only to an exaggerated extent. From what we discussed in class,** the VA was notorious for being underfunded and unable to meet high expectations but the way it was portrayed in the film seems problematic and offensive.** --- // |
| While the racism was lightly touched on during Ron's talk with Willie as he was going through his physical therapy, I found it hard to believe that there would only be one black man in Ron's platoon, particularly when we learned that the ratio of African-Americans sent to Vietnam was over double that of white Americans. | While the racism was lightly touched on during Ron's talk with Willie as he was going through his physical therapy, I found it hard to believe that there would only be one black man in Ron's platoon, particularly when we learned that the ratio of African-Americans sent to Vietnam was over double that of white Americans. | ||
| + | |||
| + | I agree with Lauren that the hospital seemed to be over dramatic for a point. **I think that the use of such a terrible experience post injury was to help with creating disillusionment for Ron.** Since the film cannot take place over the extended period and create a natural sense of hopelessness, | ||
| ====== 2 Things the Movie got right ====== | ====== 2 Things the Movie got right ====== | ||
| Line 24: | Line 26: | ||
| The movie was able to capture the war in the head idea. Many soldiers who go off to war believe that the war they are entering is going to be the same as the one before. The commanders show and teach of the perilous war. This makes it so the men have an idea of what war will be like before they get there. **In the case of Vietnam and almost every war,they have a wrong idea of what is going to happen. No one knows what the war will actually be like, but by having the war in the head ideal, the soldiers are being set up and lied to. The boys going to Vietnam went into the war thinking it would be like World War II and the Korean War. That there would be a distinct enemy that you could easily tell apart from allies and civilians.** This is really well displayed in the movie. As a kid he wants to be a soldier, he plays war with his friends and looks up to the veterans in the parade. The glorification of war that he sees and the admiration that he has for it only sets him up for disappointment and betrayal. War in the head and his glorification of war make the move ring true to many who went to Vietnam. | The movie was able to capture the war in the head idea. Many soldiers who go off to war believe that the war they are entering is going to be the same as the one before. The commanders show and teach of the perilous war. This makes it so the men have an idea of what war will be like before they get there. **In the case of Vietnam and almost every war,they have a wrong idea of what is going to happen. No one knows what the war will actually be like, but by having the war in the head ideal, the soldiers are being set up and lied to. The boys going to Vietnam went into the war thinking it would be like World War II and the Korean War. That there would be a distinct enemy that you could easily tell apart from allies and civilians.** This is really well displayed in the movie. As a kid he wants to be a soldier, he plays war with his friends and looks up to the veterans in the parade. The glorification of war that he sees and the admiration that he has for it only sets him up for disappointment and betrayal. War in the head and his glorification of war make the move ring true to many who went to Vietnam. | ||
| - | The movie portrayed the PTSD soldiers had very well. In the parade scenes, The WWII veterans flinched at the sound of fireworks and so did Ron when he came back. Also the treatment of the Vietnam veterans when they got back was accurate because this was one of the first wars where most American citizens did not support it. Unlike in past wars, when soldiers were met appreciation, | + | The movie portrayed the PTSD soldiers had very well. **In the parade scenes, The WWII veterans flinched at the sound of fireworks and so did Ron when he came back.** Also the treatment of the Vietnam veterans when they got back was accurate because this was one of the first wars where most American citizens did not support it. Unlike in past wars, when soldiers were met appreciation, |
| --- // | --- // | ||
| - | The film not only had great character development, | + | The film not only had great character development, |
| - | I thought the scene where Ronnie had the flashback in the middle of his speech was done very well, and very accurate to the way PTSD can be triggered. | + | I thought the scene where Ronnie had the flashback in the middle of his speech was done very well, and very accurate to the way PTSD can be triggered. |
| - | Since most people have already noted the accuracy of the climate of the time, war, and the film's depiction of vets with PTSD, I want to point out the filmmakers did a great job with most of the historical aesthetics. Some of the hair and makeup was a bit off at times, yes, and the mustaches on some people may have been a little too much, but from the early 60s at the beginning of the film to the late 60s and then the 70s, the vehicles, fashions, music, architecture, | + | Since most people have already noted the accuracy of the climate of the time, war, and the film's depiction of vets with PTSD, I want to point out the filmmakers did a great job with most of the historical aesthetics. Some of the hair and makeup was a bit off at times, yes, and the mustaches on some people may have been a little too much, but from the early 60s at the beginning of the film to the late 60s and then the 70s, **the vehicles, fashions, music, architecture, |
| --- // | --- // | ||
| + | |||
| + | I think the movie did a great job creating a difference in experience for older vets and Vietnam vets. The use of the parade, the kids in the woods, and Ron glorifying dying in battle created a sense of honor in war. The actual experience that Tom Cruises character has is far from these notions. War is brutual and people did not seem to care for the soldiers the way they use to. The Anti-war movement that he discovers upon his arrival was disappointing. These experience created the conditions for Ron to join the VVAW and talk about his negative experiences with the war. **The flip From glorifying the war to disillusionment was an accurate portrayal, and a sad sight to see.** --- // | ||
| ====== 3 Questions about interpretation ====== | ====== 3 Questions about interpretation ====== | ||
| Line 51: | Line 55: | ||
| So was I the only one weirded out by the kids kissing in the beginning of the film? Had they even gone through puberty at that point? | So was I the only one weirded out by the kids kissing in the beginning of the film? Had they even gone through puberty at that point? | ||
| - | Again, we have a movie that was built around a book. In the past we have dismissed the credibility of a film that was based on a fictitious story but Born on the Fourth of July was an autobiography about the man who lived it. However, does this make the story and the film more or less credible? Do we take into account that this is a story written by a man who had an agenda? Could that have influenced the way he remembered or relayed his tale? --- // | + | Again, we have a movie that was built around a book. In the past we have dismissed the credibility of a film that was based on a fictitious story but Born on the Fourth of July was an autobiography about the man who lived it. **However, does this make the story and the film more or less credible? Do we take into account that this is a story written by a man who had an agenda? Could that have influenced the way he remembered or relayed his tale?** --- // |
| Aside from the historic accuracies/ | Aside from the historic accuracies/ | ||
| - | I found the overt "Leave it to Beaver" | + | I found the overt "Leave it to Beaver" |
| + | |||
| + | I think the film did well in addressing the **mixed reception soldiers received** when they returned home from war. One soldier said, "I was in Vietnam when I first heard about the thousands of people protesting the war in the streets of America. I didn't want to believe it at first - people protesting against US when we were putting our lives on | ||
| + | the line for our country." | ||
| + | |||
| + | Is there symbolism is the scenes showing Ron's younger self playing pretend war? --- // | ||
| ====== 4 Movie as a Primary Source about the time in which it was made ====== | ====== 4 Movie as a Primary Source about the time in which it was made ====== | ||
| I think the lack of** women in major roles in this film reflect the time period in which this film was made in. Women in the film where either shown in a maternal way or as sexual objects and there was no complexity to the characters. As we discussed in class, women played important roles in Vietnam such as nurses but none of that is depicted in heroic way in the film.** The film in a way reminds me of Matewan, where female characters mostly served as plot devices and Glory where there were no female characters at all. It seems that the 1980s was a time where female roles were not well developed or complex. | I think the lack of** women in major roles in this film reflect the time period in which this film was made in. Women in the film where either shown in a maternal way or as sexual objects and there was no complexity to the characters. As we discussed in class, women played important roles in Vietnam such as nurses but none of that is depicted in heroic way in the film.** The film in a way reminds me of Matewan, where female characters mostly served as plot devices and Glory where there were no female characters at all. It seems that the 1980s was a time where female roles were not well developed or complex. | ||
| Line 66: | Line 75: | ||
| --- // | --- // | ||
| - | Aside from the changing attitudes about the Cold War, Vietnam, race relations, etc. that began around 1990, I thought it was interesting that this film preceded the Americans With Disabilities Act of 1990 by one year. While the issue of having a character with a disability be played by an actor without that disability is a controversial choice, the harsh reality of the disabilities incurred by Kovic as depicted by Tom Cruise would have probably hit audiences hard. The horrifying conditions in the hospital, the trouble Kovic has getting around, and the fact that almost everyone in the film treats him differently because of his disabilities would have been on screen for everyone to see in a major film that got a lot of critical and popular attention. This film would have probably been in the minds of at least some Americans when the ADA was passed a year after its premiere. | + | Aside from the changing attitudes about the Cold War, Vietnam, race relations, etc. that began around 1990, I thought it was interesting that this film preceded the **Americans With Disabilities Act of 1990** by one year. While the issue of having a character with a disability be played by an actor without that disability is a controversial choice, the harsh reality of the disabilities incurred by Kovic as depicted by Tom Cruise would have probably hit audiences hard. The horrifying conditions in the hospital, the trouble Kovic has getting around, and the fact that almost everyone in the film treats him differently because of his disabilities would have been on screen for everyone to see in a major film that got a lot of critical and popular attention. |
| --- // | --- // | ||
| - | Considering the film was produced during the end of the 80's, the Cold War would have been coming to an end shortly after. At this time, due to the publicized nature of the Vietnam War via television and the constant anti-war protests, large swathes of the American populace had grown disillusioned with whether or not the United States was "the good guy" in the various active military engagements. Especially with stories of various war crimes or civilians being killed by American soldiers. | + | Considering the film was produced during the end of the 80's, the Cold War would have been coming to an end shortly after. At this time, due to the publicized nature of the Vietnam War via television and the constant anti-war protests, large swathes of the American populace had grown disillusioned with whether or not the United States was "the good guy" in the various active military engagements. Especially with stories of various war crimes or civilians being killed by American soldiers. |
| ====== 5 Comparing the reading to the movie ====== | ====== 5 Comparing the reading to the movie ====== | ||
| **In the reading Rumor of War Caputo discusses the call his generation felt from Kennedy’s challenge. This was referenced in the film as well.** Both in the initial scene where Ronnie sees the original speech on television as well as the moment where he confronts his father about supporting his military service. Having those two scene emphasizes the ideology of optimism and patriotism people felt in that moment. The fact that it is present between the reading and the film really reminds about how people felt in that moment. | **In the reading Rumor of War Caputo discusses the call his generation felt from Kennedy’s challenge. This was referenced in the film as well.** Both in the initial scene where Ronnie sees the original speech on television as well as the moment where he confronts his father about supporting his military service. Having those two scene emphasizes the ideology of optimism and patriotism people felt in that moment. The fact that it is present between the reading and the film really reminds about how people felt in that moment. | ||
| Line 75: | Line 84: | ||
| Caputo' | Caputo' | ||
| - | The chapter from //The Things They Carried// relates a great deal to the movie, although the book is more direct about it, naming off what the items were and how much they weighed. The chapter also mentions the mental and emotional burdens and the sacrifices -- the mental and emotional things they dropped -- that they endured throughout the war. We see this more visually than explicitly in the movie, **especially as veterans interacted with one another. They shared the pain, the emotional distress, the almost-bragging-almost-confessing when they discuss who they killed or how much death they saw.** //The Things They Carried// is a work of fiction, but it's one of the most powerful and influential stories about the war, so relating it to the movie gives us another layer of how it has been represented in media as opposed to real-life experiences. | + | The chapter from //The Things They Carried// relates a great deal to the movie, although the book is more direct about it, naming off what the items were and how much they weighed. The chapter also mentions the mental and emotional burdens and the sacrifices -- the mental and emotional things they dropped -- that they endured throughout the war. We see this more visually than explicitly in the movie, **especially as veterans interacted with one another. They shared the pain, the emotional distress, the almost-bragging-almost-confessing when they discuss who they killed or how much death they saw.** //The Things They Carried// is a work of fiction, but it's one of the most powerful and influential stories about the war, so relating it to the movie gives us another layer of how it has been represented in media as opposed to real-life experiences. |
| + | |||
| + | //The Things they Carried// describes the physical, mental, and emotional weights and sacrifices of the Vietnam War. While the soldiers have varying talismans that keep them grounded, they are also weighed down by the memories of killing the enemy soldier as well as of their comrades being killed. **Take these memories, add a sense of hopelessness from the war dragging on without definitive signs of victory or defeat, and a sprinkle of anxiety for a sudden enemy attack or mine blowing up, and you have the perfect recipe for future PTSD. This reading compliments the film's portrayal of soldier distress and the hidden emotional and mental tolls of war.** | ||
| + | |||
| ====== 6 The "So, what?" question ====== | ====== 6 The "So, what?" question ====== | ||
| Line 90: | Line 103: | ||
| This movie came out the same year as another Vietnam film that we did not discuss in class, // | This movie came out the same year as another Vietnam film that we did not discuss in class, // | ||
| + | |||
| + | All things considered, "Born on the Fourth of July" is fairly accurate. Some of the inaccuracies are designed to advance the themes and since Kovic had a hand in the production, we can assume he was okay with the liberties Stone took. Of course, this does not excuse inventing a character like Donna. It is more acceptable to combine some incidents for time and plot purposes. The biggest strength of the movie accuracy-wise is Cruise' | ||
329/question/329--week_14_questions_comments.1480582612.txt.gz · Last modified: 2016/12/01 08:56 by ccooney