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329:question:329--week_13_questions_comments-2020 [2020/11/19 07:48] – daniel_walker329:question:329--week_13_questions_comments-2020 [2020/11/19 14:26] (current) – [V. The "So, what?" question] 192.65.245.80
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 There were a number of details that the film got right about history.  Blue on blue was not that rare of a tragedy during the war.  Soldiers were in an area totally unfamiliar to them and they were fighting forces who could come out of hiding at any time.  Also, while they showed the poor conditions of the hospitals.  None of the patients seemed to be getting the care they needed.  There is even the scene where the man basically says he is not even a doctor.  The film also does a good job of showing the difficulty in readjusting to life back home and the friction that can have in a family.  Unfortunately, families like Ron's were fairly common where they simply could not handle their kid after the war.  Overall, the film was fairly accurate although it was dramatic and cheesy at times.- Daniel Walker    There were a number of details that the film got right about history.  Blue on blue was not that rare of a tragedy during the war.  Soldiers were in an area totally unfamiliar to them and they were fighting forces who could come out of hiding at any time.  Also, while they showed the poor conditions of the hospitals.  None of the patients seemed to be getting the care they needed.  There is even the scene where the man basically says he is not even a doctor.  The film also does a good job of showing the difficulty in readjusting to life back home and the friction that can have in a family.  Unfortunately, families like Ron's were fairly common where they simply could not handle their kid after the war.  Overall, the film was fairly accurate although it was dramatic and cheesy at times.- Daniel Walker   
  
-I thought the movie did a good job of showing the brutality of war and portraying the struggles of soldiers coming back from Vietnam, facing a community that in the words of Ron's friend Stevie: didn't really care about what was going on abroad. Like we discussed in class, people were not involved in the war effort on the home front, as the economy was booming. Although, unlike other wars, people were more aware of some of the horrors abroad as in the movie Donna brings up the My Lai massacre. I think another thing that was good about the movie was it gave a good amount of nuance to the views of soldiers who had just arrived and the thoughts of protestors. Obviously, Ron was upset that he had lost his ability to walk in a war that was so unpopular at home, he had wanted to be seen as a hero, like the men in WWII, and didn't get that treatment. But as Ron comes to understand the point of view of the protestors, he realizes the horrors of the war, and begins to fight so other young men won't be sent without reason. -- Helen Dhue+I thought the movie did a good job of showing the brutality of war and portraying the struggles of soldiers coming back from Vietnam, **facing a community that in the words of Ron's friend Stevie: didn't really care about what was going on abroad.** Like we discussed in class, people were not involved in the war effort on the home front, as the economy was booming. Although, unlike other wars, people were more aware of some of the horrors abroad as in the movie Donna brings up the My Lai massacre. I think another thing that was good about the movie was it gave a good amount of nuance to the views of soldiers who had just arrived and the thoughts of protestors. Obviously, Ron was upset that he had lost his ability to walk in a war that was so unpopular at home, he had wanted to be seen as a hero, like the men in WWII, and didn't get that treatment. But as Ron comes to understand the point of view of the protestors, he realizes the horrors of the war, and begins to fight so other young men won't be sent without reason. -- Helen Dhue
  
 This movie grabs you right from the very beginning with the first scene in Vietnam. When they approach the village after shooting it and see the women and children lying there it give you the same feeling in your stomach as the picture of the My Lai massacre does. Then the aspect of friendly fire thrown in immediately after. Then his supervisor telling him no to talk about it. It all feels real and it makes you angry. Then as the movie progresses they show the crappy hospital conditions and the mixed reception he receives back home. It is that beginning that appears to work very well as a secondary source that ropes you in immediately. I expected to see a film about living through the war during Vietnam, instead I saw a film about living life after the war in Vietnam.- Dan Dilks This movie grabs you right from the very beginning with the first scene in Vietnam. When they approach the village after shooting it and see the women and children lying there it give you the same feeling in your stomach as the picture of the My Lai massacre does. Then the aspect of friendly fire thrown in immediately after. Then his supervisor telling him no to talk about it. It all feels real and it makes you angry. Then as the movie progresses they show the crappy hospital conditions and the mixed reception he receives back home. It is that beginning that appears to work very well as a secondary source that ropes you in immediately. I expected to see a film about living through the war during Vietnam, instead I saw a film about living life after the war in Vietnam.- Dan Dilks
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 This film works pretty well as a secondary source - though definitely for mature audiences - about the Vietnam war and the treatment of veterans after the war. It presents a very biting and bloody film contrasted with the glorification of war at the beginning of the film. //Born on the Fourth of July// does a good job of contrasting the treatment and views of WWII veterans with that of Vietnam veterans and how much less likely it was for them to get the massive parade demonstrations or the kinds of commendations that other veterans often received, particularly when the war was over and the United States had lost. It exemplifies many of the struggles that veterans suffered through medical treatment, permanent and long-lasting effects from the warlike PTSD and paralysis, and the struggle to reintegrate into society after the war, particularly with all of the anti-war protests at home. Additionally, it dove into the protest movement and the treatment of protestors by the police, other veterans, etc. I was overall fairly impressed with the movie and how jarring it made its scenes to give you the sense of chaos and displacement that veterans like Ron felt through their time in the war and at home.   - Ashley Dimino This film works pretty well as a secondary source - though definitely for mature audiences - about the Vietnam war and the treatment of veterans after the war. It presents a very biting and bloody film contrasted with the glorification of war at the beginning of the film. //Born on the Fourth of July// does a good job of contrasting the treatment and views of WWII veterans with that of Vietnam veterans and how much less likely it was for them to get the massive parade demonstrations or the kinds of commendations that other veterans often received, particularly when the war was over and the United States had lost. It exemplifies many of the struggles that veterans suffered through medical treatment, permanent and long-lasting effects from the warlike PTSD and paralysis, and the struggle to reintegrate into society after the war, particularly with all of the anti-war protests at home. Additionally, it dove into the protest movement and the treatment of protestors by the police, other veterans, etc. I was overall fairly impressed with the movie and how jarring it made its scenes to give you the sense of chaos and displacement that veterans like Ron felt through their time in the war and at home.   - Ashley Dimino
  
 +I think that //Born on the Fourth of July// does a great job at capturing the mixture of emotions about joining the military and fighting in the Vietnam war. It shows both sides of Americans, those who believed that what they were doing was right, and those who disagreed with joining in the fighting. Even within Ron's household, you could see siblings who thought differently, and parents who were unsure of their children's desires to go overseas. I think that the film also did a good job of showing the issues that soldiers faced once they were overseas, such as, low morale, friendly fire, and mixed emotions about their roles once they started actually fighting in the war. In my opinion, this movie would be a good secondary source overall because it is good at showing the mixture of emotions and opinions about the Vietnam war as a whole. -Mariah Morton 
  
 ====== II. Problems with historical accuracy? Errors in fact? ====== ====== II. Problems with historical accuracy? Errors in fact? ======
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 I also saw that he didn't speak at the fourth of July speech, which I think is important to note, as in class we discussed that Vietnam soldiers often didn't get parades or praise from the community. I think the movie still stays fairly true to the overall disapproval towards the war, as during his speech the audience boos him. --Helen Dhue I also saw that he didn't speak at the fourth of July speech, which I think is important to note, as in class we discussed that Vietnam soldiers often didn't get parades or praise from the community. I think the movie still stays fairly true to the overall disapproval towards the war, as during his speech the audience boos him. --Helen Dhue
  
 +One aspect of the film that I thought was misleading is that it only really showed Kovic as a widely recognized leader in the peace movement after the writing of his book. However, it's important to note that Kovic was a leader in the peace movement not long after he returned home from Vietnam (not just a reluctant, hap-hazard follower as the film shows) - Ethan
 ====== III. How does the film’s overall interpretation(s) deviate from scholarly historical sources? ====== ====== III. How does the film’s overall interpretation(s) deviate from scholarly historical sources? ======
  
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 I thought the movie was pretty accurate to the scholarly sources. One of the interesting things the sources pointed to was the Kennedy quote "Ask not what your country can do for you.." and discussed how this sentiment was strong in the minds of many young men. In the movie, Ron watches the same speech and is inspired. As well, the sources describe a **nostalgia many men felt towards Vietnam** even though it had been a scarring experience. I think we see a little bit of that in Ron, even though he suffers greatly, upon his arrival at home he seems to have some bit of nostalgia towards his time there. --Helen Dhue I thought the movie was pretty accurate to the scholarly sources. One of the interesting things the sources pointed to was the Kennedy quote "Ask not what your country can do for you.." and discussed how this sentiment was strong in the minds of many young men. In the movie, Ron watches the same speech and is inspired. As well, the sources describe a **nostalgia many men felt towards Vietnam** even though it had been a scarring experience. I think we see a little bit of that in Ron, even though he suffers greatly, upon his arrival at home he seems to have some bit of nostalgia towards his time there. --Helen Dhue
  
-Like Cat, I feel as if I noticed more similarities than differences between the historical sources and the movie Born on the Fourth of July. I particularly enjoyed reading the prologue to Philip Caputo’s Rumor of War because he talked about how the war was a long experience for soldiers during and after the War or even when they had left the combat zone. I feel as if the movie captures that concept by having it span over Ron Kovic’s experience after he was injured. Additionally, the prolog talks about “the pride and overpowering self-assurance” that the young men had at the beginning when they signed up for the war. Additionally, the prologue talks about how the men were disillusioned of war and were partially “seduced” into a uniform by Kennedy. I feel like these are things expressed in the film, however, I feel as if the influence that Kennedy played on these young men's lives was downplayed in the film. -Megan Williams+Like Cat, I feel as if I noticed more similarities than differences between the historical sources and the movie Born on the Fourth of July. I particularly enjoyed reading the prologue to Philip Caputo’s Rumor of War because he talked about how the war was a long experience for soldiers during and after the War or even when they had left the combat zone. I feel as if the movie captures that concept by having it span over Ron Kovic’s experience after he was injured. Additionally, the prolog talks about “the pride and overpowering self-assurance” that the young men had at the beginning when they signed up for the war. Additionally, the prologue talks about how the men were disillusioned of war and were **partially “seduced” into a uniform by Kennedy**. I feel like these are things expressed in the film, however, I feel as if the influence that Kennedy played on these young men's lives was downplayed in the film. -Megan Williams 
 + 
 +Like mentioned before, I think that this film actually stayed fairly true to the readings. I think that it did a good job of showing the excitement and romanticization people had of war before becoming a part of it; later, it did a good job of showing how those feelings changed. Other issues such as PTSD, life-long injuries, and the death of fellow soldiers, were also bought up in the film as well. I think that it did a good job of portraying the same issues and feelings that were written about in the primary sources. -Mariah Morton
    
 ====== IV. How does this movie work as a primary source about the time period in which it was made or the filmmakers? ====== ====== IV. How does this movie work as a primary source about the time period in which it was made or the filmmakers? ======
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 As a primary source of the time period, //Born on the Fourth of July// offers an interpretation of the changing opinions in America's policies related to ward in a post-Vietnam setting. The movie itself is based off the autobiography of Ron Kovic, who actually served in Vietnam. **The movie also shows the changes in how Kovic perceived U.S. involvement in Vietnam, going from being enthusiastic to join the Marine Corps to openly stating how disillusioned he is with the conflict.** While not everything in the film is entirely accurate, **the Kovic's changing opinions of Vietnam reflect the public's changing opinion of that era as well as the long lasting repercussions that have carried over into modern day portrayals of war.** The movie was made just a little over ten years after Kovic's autobiography was published, meaning these topics were still fresh in the public's minds. -- Lyndsey Clark As a primary source of the time period, //Born on the Fourth of July// offers an interpretation of the changing opinions in America's policies related to ward in a post-Vietnam setting. The movie itself is based off the autobiography of Ron Kovic, who actually served in Vietnam. **The movie also shows the changes in how Kovic perceived U.S. involvement in Vietnam, going from being enthusiastic to join the Marine Corps to openly stating how disillusioned he is with the conflict.** While not everything in the film is entirely accurate, **the Kovic's changing opinions of Vietnam reflect the public's changing opinion of that era as well as the long lasting repercussions that have carried over into modern day portrayals of war.** The movie was made just a little over ten years after Kovic's autobiography was published, meaning these topics were still fresh in the public's minds. -- Lyndsey Clark
 +
 +Oliver Stone has made many movies about Vietnam and is one of the most famous directors of the last several decades.  This movie came out very soon after his Best Picture award-winning film "Platoon".  It also came out during a time when movies about the Vietnam War were very popular and frequently made.  Stone committed himself to accuracy and genuineness in aspects of these films.  For "Platoon", he sent the cast out in the jungle for two weeks in an attempt to help them get experience in what it was like wandering around the jungles of Vietnam.  In this film, while it focused much less on the war, it is clear that the movie checks off the box of being a movie about Vietnam which would increase its popularity in that time.  Additionally, given Stone's own experience in Vietnam, it also demonstrates his own viewpoints towards the war and therefore a relevant viewpoint towards the war of many people during that time period.
  
 This film is a great primary source for the time period in which it was made because it represents societal change on the views of Vietnam Veterans and their treatment both in the field and upon returning home. As referenced in class and in the reading, Vietnam veteran’s experience was intensely different than that of American soldiers before them. The raw and real experiences of soldiers featured in this film are incredible because it really shows the struggles some Vietnam veterans went through. While this was just the story of Ron Kovic, it shows the horrors of the Veterans treatment from both the government and the American people, which is **something 10 years prior to 1989, just after the war ended, the nation would have never really admitted** and the American people certainly would have tanked this movie.** The success that it had in 1989 was remarkable in and of itself simply because of how graphic, raw, and uncomfortable** the movie is for Americans as it exposes the ugly truth of being a Vietnam veteran and returning to the country veterans risked and lost so much for. -Morgan Gilbert This film is a great primary source for the time period in which it was made because it represents societal change on the views of Vietnam Veterans and their treatment both in the field and upon returning home. As referenced in class and in the reading, Vietnam veteran’s experience was intensely different than that of American soldiers before them. The raw and real experiences of soldiers featured in this film are incredible because it really shows the struggles some Vietnam veterans went through. While this was just the story of Ron Kovic, it shows the horrors of the Veterans treatment from both the government and the American people, which is **something 10 years prior to 1989, just after the war ended, the nation would have never really admitted** and the American people certainly would have tanked this movie.** The success that it had in 1989 was remarkable in and of itself simply because of how graphic, raw, and uncomfortable** the movie is for Americans as it exposes the ugly truth of being a Vietnam veteran and returning to the country veterans risked and lost so much for. -Morgan Gilbert
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 This movie represents the veterans perspective of events they witnessed in Vietnam, as well as the aftermath. Vietnam is as unpopular as wars get, yet finding an accurate take on the conflict from a veteran's perspective is tough to do. Kovic sees many brutal things while in Vietnam then comes home and suffers just as much in a place where he should be welcomed. For instance, the friendly fire killing of Wilson, which is simply brushed off. **And the incident where Vietnamese villages are killed. These are horrific things that not only the American public became aware of, but the soldiers themselves had to deal with committing such atrocities. Circumstances like those can cause a person to become disconnected and develop questionable morals.** More importantly, we see how Kovic deals with being paralyzed for the rest of his life because of the war. Veterans can potentially become suicidal and even learn to resent their lot in life due to the circumstances surrounding an condition such as that. -- Lyndsey Clark This movie represents the veterans perspective of events they witnessed in Vietnam, as well as the aftermath. Vietnam is as unpopular as wars get, yet finding an accurate take on the conflict from a veteran's perspective is tough to do. Kovic sees many brutal things while in Vietnam then comes home and suffers just as much in a place where he should be welcomed. For instance, the friendly fire killing of Wilson, which is simply brushed off. **And the incident where Vietnamese villages are killed. These are horrific things that not only the American public became aware of, but the soldiers themselves had to deal with committing such atrocities. Circumstances like those can cause a person to become disconnected and develop questionable morals.** More importantly, we see how Kovic deals with being paralyzed for the rest of his life because of the war. Veterans can potentially become suicidal and even learn to resent their lot in life due to the circumstances surrounding an condition such as that. -- Lyndsey Clark
 +
 +One important aspect of this movie is the view it provides of a soldier trying to readjust back to life on the homefront.  Many movies gloss over this readjustment or simply ignore it.  This movie does not.  It is important for audiences to see how it can feel as a veteran coming back home, so people around them can help them.  It also is able to develop the anti-war sentiment strongly because of the trajectory of the story.  Ron starting off as being pro-war but transitioning to anti-war creates a more compelling argument.  This movie is more than just a blockbuster Hollywood movie because it has a clear message and desired effect. -Daniel Walker
  
 Compared to other movies we talked about in class on Tuesday, //Taxi Driver//, //Coming Home//, //Deerhunter//, and //Rambo: First Blood// all depict Vietnam veterans in villainous and monstrous ways. //Born on the Fourth of July// deals with the struggle veterans had abruptly come back from a war that was so different from anything else the United States had dealt with, and the lack of support veterans had. After the My Lai Massacre, most Vietnam veterans were painted as murderers, rapists, and baby killers. **This movie helped to re-humanize Vietnam veterans to the American public, as well as help them understand the impossible situations they found themselves in during the war**. --Cat Kinde   Compared to other movies we talked about in class on Tuesday, //Taxi Driver//, //Coming Home//, //Deerhunter//, and //Rambo: First Blood// all depict Vietnam veterans in villainous and monstrous ways. //Born on the Fourth of July// deals with the struggle veterans had abruptly come back from a war that was so different from anything else the United States had dealt with, and the lack of support veterans had. After the My Lai Massacre, most Vietnam veterans were painted as murderers, rapists, and baby killers. **This movie helped to re-humanize Vietnam veterans to the American public, as well as help them understand the impossible situations they found themselves in during the war**. --Cat Kinde  
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 Coming out of the Vietnam era many Americans felt they had been cheated and lied to, this is shown in the film quite well, and many Americans felt really negatively about the conflict and the government all together. However, most of these Americans never experienced the war. The film as well as the primary sources explore the relationship veterans had with the war and the disconnect they felt returning to civilian life. I think this film did a great job trying to bridge the gap between the veteran and civilian perspective. Tons of Americans knew the war was wrong, granted many still believed in it even by the end, but the trauma and hardships faced by returning vets was something that was almost impossible to understand for civilians. The film is still relevant today for that same reason; it explores the pain, nuance, and trauma faced by vets who couldn't or wouldn't talk about those things themselves. - Wilson Coming out of the Vietnam era many Americans felt they had been cheated and lied to, this is shown in the film quite well, and many Americans felt really negatively about the conflict and the government all together. However, most of these Americans never experienced the war. The film as well as the primary sources explore the relationship veterans had with the war and the disconnect they felt returning to civilian life. I think this film did a great job trying to bridge the gap between the veteran and civilian perspective. Tons of Americans knew the war was wrong, granted many still believed in it even by the end, but the trauma and hardships faced by returning vets was something that was almost impossible to understand for civilians. The film is still relevant today for that same reason; it explores the pain, nuance, and trauma faced by vets who couldn't or wouldn't talk about those things themselves. - Wilson
  
- I feel like particularly with its focus on the anti-war protests,// Born on the Fourth of July// is still very relevant in discussing police brutality and this very tempestuous period of protest and rising conservatism. The scene with the 1972 Republican National Convention well-established the contrast of Nixon's words about treating Vietnam veterans well at the same time Ronnie and the other veterans were being abused by Republicans, security, and the police. The primary complaint I had of this film was that it still gave a happy ending, that Ronnie was able to be successful and that him going to the Democratic National Convention in 1976 was somehow going to fix everything. Overall, I thought it was a good film on the horrors of war and the aftermath, but I wish they had addressed that some of the veterans never recovered. I don't know that this helped too much about the consistent portrayal of the crazy Vietnam veteran, but this movie at least provided more understanding and context to what could cause that in veterans and the kind of trauma they went through. - Ashley Dimino+ I feel like particularly with its focus on the anti-war protests,// Born on the Fourth of July// is still very relevant in discussing police brutality and this very tempestuous period of protest and rising conservatism. The scene with the 1972 Republican National Convention well-established the contrast of Nixon's words about treating Vietnam veterans well at the same time Ronnie and the other veterans were being abused by Republicans, security, and the police. The primary complaint I had of this film was that it still gave a happy ending, that Ronnie was able to be successful and that him **going to the Democratic National Convention in 1976 was somehow going to fix everything**. Overall, I thought it was a good film on the horrors of war and the aftermath, but I wish they had addressed that some of the veterans never recovered. I don't know that this helped too much about the consistent portrayal of the crazy Vietnam veteran, but this movie at least provided more understanding and context to what could cause that in veterans and the kind of trauma they went through. - Ashley Dimino 
 + 
 +While one could argue that this film still played into certain stereotypes about Vietnam vets, overall it did something arguably important: **it portrayed a disillusioned vet as not as someone who hated his country, but as someone who opposed the war because he loved it.** It seems like many films portray dissenting Vietnam vets as people who are just disillusioned with the US as a whole (whether the viewers are intended to sympathize with that point of view or not), but I think it's important to show the perspective of many soldiers: they loved their //country//, but felt that the //war// was wrong. - Ethan
  
329/question/329--week_13_questions_comments-2020.1605772083.txt.gz · Last modified: 2020/11/19 07:48 by daniel_walker